Things I Don't Understand: FWD Coupes

"Milky" (jordanmielke) 01/20/2014 at 21:00 • Filed to: Kia Stinger, Nissan IDX

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Take a car and remove the RWD fun AND the packaging benefits of FWD.

FWD family sedans, I understand the appeal if you just want a nice car. The way the packaging is set up the engine is shoved all the way forward which gives you big gains in interior volume (plus a mileage gain too). But when you turn a FWD sedan into a coupe you instantly take a package that is inherently great at space and then make it horrible. In the end you have a compromised vehicle with no benefits.

Especially since there are so many good cheap RWD coupes right now.

And after seeing these two today, it looks like the market place is just going to get better.

Also I should clarify this is all IMO and I know they don't make the Altima coupe anymore.

Brian Silvestro > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:03

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They make these cars to make money off stupid people with limited funds.

Bandit > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:03

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Because it is cheap to produce since they already have the platform? Customers want something cheap that looks sporty and they don't care how it drives? Also, the Lancia Fulvia and Olds Toronado would like to have a talk with you.

offroadkarter > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:06

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FWD coupes are for high school and college girls 90% of the time....

Thats usually who I see driving those altima coupes especially, or the newer eclipses that everyone else forgot about.

signintokinjalol > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:08

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Honestly, unless you track it or auto x, you won't notice the difference. What makes FWD fun, is that if it's set up right, it can be very twitchy. At that point it makes it different then RWD, but a twitchy FWD car is something we should all drive because it is a rare and glorious thing.

AthomSfere > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:09

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Scratch the Mustang as a good RWD coupe... But;

Other than that, 25k on a FWD gets a lot of car, like a fully loaded Focus ST, Civic, Mazda Speed3...

In RWD sportsy cars, you get uh... the base Mustang, Challenger, Camaro...

That said, I love my Civic Si Sedan, next car though... Either BRZ, Genesis, Camaro SS...? Or... Damn things are getting interesting with cars recently!

Milky > Bandit 01/20/2014 at 21:10

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I dislike the "looks sporty and they don't care how it drives" mindset but that probably is completely it. As for "cheap" the Altima coupe started at 25k soooooo its not.

The Fulvia can have a talk with me, the Toronado can keep to its self because it has to torque steer city.

Milky > AthomSfere 01/20/2014 at 21:17

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First off the ST and Speed3 are hatches and have even more practicality. At least your Civic has useable seat and isn't compromised, which goes along with what I'm saying.

As for the Mustang hate, I normally would talk shit with you. But I respect it, and it will walk all over my car and your car. Just some perspective.

Milky > offroadkarter 01/20/2014 at 21:18

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Uggh I hate seeing these.

Deal Killer - Powered by Focus > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:19

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I don't know, I'd rock an Accord Coupe. It's one of the last of the breed, really. A big, sporty two door personal luxury car. And with the V6, it'd kick most unsuspecting cars in the ass.

AthomSfere > offroadkarter 01/20/2014 at 21:24

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That who buys most the Mustangs too...

Milky > signintokinjalol 01/20/2014 at 21:26

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"Honestly, unless you track it or auto x, you won't notice the difference." Uhh wat? Isn't that just blatantly not true. I do spirited driving and can feel the difference, not to mention drifting every time it snows.

I know the ST brothers have oversteer tendencies, but cars like those are few and far between (you even said rare) and not to mention they're hatches.

AthomSfere > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:32

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Not that I really car, but dollar for dollar the Si and V6 Mustang are the closest match and last I looked it would be a drivers race between the two. Autox or track maybe the Si due to much better handling...

But, Mustang hate: Yes its mostly personal preference but the Mustang is just soooo generic. Its the "fast" car every teenage girl and boy buys based off of the name alone. Which unfortunatly results in far too much "Dooood, my V6 mustang has the auto, and its bright colors with go faster stripes... It can beat most super cars and even the GT 500 is only like a tiny bit faster".

So I admit now, my hate is not completely fair... But I do have some more practical gripes! It has become way too big, and taken entirely long to add modern features like LSD.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:35

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As the proud owner of a 2001 Civic 2dr, they are for ppl that don't want a sedan B/c they like smaller cars, and know tiny sedans are pointless b.c the back seat is still useless(see VW Jetta), but the still need a piratical 4 season car . Also in my case I happened to find a very clean 2dr at the dealership I work at, that was just to tempting to pass it up and hope I find a hatchback. Now these big "coupes" like the Altima, and Accord i don't understand b/c you're still driving a big car with all the downsides of a small car. All this said I still hope my next automotive purchase will involve some RWD goodness, or AWD depending on if i'm in a situation to own two vehicles or not. RWD sports cars do not do well in Wisconsin winters.

Milky > Deal Killer - Powered by Focus 01/20/2014 at 21:38

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This is a car I don't understand, to get a V6 you have spend 30k, even though the camaro and mustang have more HP at 23k and for 30k you can get a 400hp V8 in the pony cars. Not to mention you can get a v6 powered Genesis or a Z for that price.

I really don't see any benefit to this car, esp. since you don't get a more useable backseat. I'm okay with it being the last of its breed. Hell even if you ONLY want luxury the 2 series starts at 32k and the CLA (they call it a coupe) starts at 29.9k.

offroadkarter > AthomSfere 01/20/2014 at 21:41

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yeah I see a ton of college girls driving boss 302's and GT500's

offroadkarter > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:42

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its a far cry from the DSM days

AthomSfere > offroadkarter 01/20/2014 at 21:43

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Yes, because those sell in anywhere near the same number as the V6s with autos.

offroadkarter > AthomSfere 01/20/2014 at 21:44

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you mean the rental cars?

Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > AthomSfere 01/20/2014 at 21:45

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Mustangs have had an LSD available since at least '96, and the foundation for your argument is a Civic Si and you're complaining about fanboys?

AthomSfere > offroadkarter 01/20/2014 at 21:47

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No, I just mean 99% of the Mustangs I see are V6 almost always with the auto.

I have more respect for the GTs, but I am still a little uneasy with them. If we are talking GT 500 or BOSS... Hell I'd love a Boss 302.

offroadkarter > AthomSfere 01/20/2014 at 21:50

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most of the 5th gen camaros I see around are v6 auto's also. Including the new 2014 at my job. I think I've seen one 2014 SS in person so far, and it was at a dealer.

V6 challengers come down to why even bother

AthomSfere > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/20/2014 at 21:50

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That doesn't sound right...

Isn't one of the great divides in the Mustang world the fact that the 2015 will be the first to sell only with a LSD (Or did you mean "offered since 96"?)

AthomSfere > offroadkarter 01/20/2014 at 21:53

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Camaros aren't much better, agreed. But I see less of them. And of the Camaros I have had the chance to actually see up close, I think 3 /4 were SS w/ manual. But driving I am not familiar enough to know, the RS / SS is what gives it away to me.

The Challenger: I know one guy with one, V6 and manual... But compared to the Versa he traded for it, its awesome and b) The Challenger I think is easily the best looker of the bunch.

Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:55

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Hate all you want, but this will take a Mustang stop light to stop light.

Yes it is FWD, yeah its a girl car, yeah it is cheaply made, it rattles, its annoying.

But it kicks ass, and isn't a terrible car for what I paid and have into it.

I like FWD, but I've owned more RWD cars than I have FWD. FWD is fun and can be quick in the quarter mile or on an autocorss track with the right setup.

Fastest 1/4 mile to date was 12.6. Aiming to get into the lower 12s next season with meth and a new tune.

offroadkarter > AthomSfere 01/20/2014 at 21:55

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challengers look great, but a 250hp v6 and those base model wheels do a lot to detract from the car

Tom McParland > Milky 01/20/2014 at 21:58

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Just to play devil's advocate....some people are Honda die-hards they don't want a muscle car, they want a stylish and quick 2-door that is going to be pretty trouble free and not get them killed in the winter. Would I buy one...no. But is it a nice car...yes.

Milky > offroadkarter 01/20/2014 at 22:05

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But they gave it a 305hp V6 now!

Milky > Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT 01/20/2014 at 22:08

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…. but your car is CLEARLY not stock …..

All I'm saying is, if I can't drift … I want a useable backseat in return.

offroadkarter > Milky 01/20/2014 at 22:11

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holy crap its about time, maybe now it can hit low 14's

Milky > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 01/20/2014 at 22:11

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Define practical 4 season car …. from a Michigan resident.

Nick, Drives a Cobalt LT > Milky 01/20/2014 at 22:12

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My back seat is useable.

My friend who is six foot sat back there with no complaints

OTher people have been there and not complained.

It is useable, and even stock this car did mid 13s

And you can "drift" this car, lift off oversteer or even in the rain if I go in a little got I can get the back out and control it fairly well.

But like you said, I like to drift, so I got a RWD truck. So I can have my fun in the snow

Milky > Tom McParland 01/20/2014 at 22:19

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But …. Mustang GT …. CLA …. Why they no want??

….. I don't understand …..

theloudmouth > Milky 01/20/2014 at 22:21

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Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney > AthomSfere 01/20/2014 at 22:49

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Offered since at least '79. What does it matter that it was available without an LSD? Is it a negative mark on the relative merits of your Si that Civics were offered in non-Si form with automatic transmissions and anemic engines?

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > Milky 01/20/2014 at 22:53

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You do realize though, the V6 manual Accord coupe is almost as fast as the V8 versions of the cars in question. It handly does 0-60 in the low 5s, and has an interior on par with a lot of near-luxury cars.

And it goes in snow.

Milky > theloudmouth 01/20/2014 at 22:59

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I've heard it being called "the best handling FWD car" …..

…. but they don't make it anymore so no matter!!

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Milky 01/20/2014 at 23:02

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Style and legroom are your answer. You sacrifice some rear seat access for a better look (usually) and more up front legroom. Not all cars have to be massively jalop you know. Yes, these coupes aren't made for out and out performance but does that mean they have/had no right to exist? I think nowadays the price of making them has exceeded the profits that can be made on them but for many years, they made sense to produce and generated profits for their companies. I'm going to bring up your archnemesis - the MONTE CARLO!!!!! *lightning strike* *evil laughter*

Lots of women bought it because it looked better than the lumina/impala. That was all. It drove almost the same, had nearly identical interior features, but had better front seats and looked more stylish while remaining very affordable. Ditto the accord coupe, the altima coupe, the camry coupe, the ford probe, the MX-6, you get the idea....But most of the FWD coupes you see nowadays are remnants of old designs though. The accord coupe is stagnant, and the altima coupe has been reduced to an I-4, CVT equipped shell of its former V6/6-speed manual former self. None of the domestics make a mid-sized or even compact coupe anymore. There just isn't money in these cars since the recession. But if they have their market, for better or worse, then they have a right to be made. You'll see them come back again someday. I bet money on it. GM isn't one to sit on potential money so if their next mid-sized or full sized platform is good enough, don't be surprised if you see a turbo-4 and V6 powered coupe with the name "Monte Carlo" again, even if it's FWD.

Your boy, BJR > Milky 01/20/2014 at 23:12

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ummmmm

uhhhhhhhh

ehhhhhhhhhh

ummmmmmmm

Tom McParland > Milky 01/20/2014 at 23:14

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Different strokes

Stef Schrader > Deal Killer - Powered by Focus 01/20/2014 at 23:19

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I really, really like this design. It's sharp and clean. That blue is nice, too.

(I just wish it was RWD for more driving hilarity.)

Milky > BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather 01/20/2014 at 23:32

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According to car and driver & autoblog it does it in 5.6. which is quite a ways off the mustang's 4.3 and camaro's 4.8.

Not to mention it doesn't go in snow the proper way.

AthomSfere > Bob Loblaw Made Me Make a Phoney Phone Call to Edward Rooney 01/20/2014 at 23:33

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What argument did I have for anything here?

Milky > Your boy, BJR 01/20/2014 at 23:37

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Well the bottom two are hatches …. and … well they don't make 3 of those anymore.

The market has spoken!!

Milky > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/20/2014 at 23:40

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Wait you actually get more front leg room? That just sounds wrong, you might be right but I'm skeptical. Esp since since they have the same dash, so wouldn't the steering wheel and pedals be in the she spot?

But I think this is a debate I'm on the right side for once!! The market has spoken and its on my side. Muauahahahaha.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Milky 01/20/2014 at 23:45

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At this time, yeah the market wants RWD coupes.

But for the FWD coupes, they might have the same dash and whatnot, but they often push the front seats (which are usually buckets) back a few inches so entry/exit is easier. Look at the front doors of a sedan compared to a coupe counterpart, the coupe's doors are a bit longer. So imagine placing the seat at the exact same location. If you didn't move the seat back a bit, you'd have to open the longer door very far to get in/out of the car. Having owned a riviera, I can assure you that it is difficult enough as is in some parking lots when people are assholes. So you get more legroom in them.

Deal Killer - Powered by Focus > Milky 01/20/2014 at 23:45

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Well, you see, some of us here on this here website are more than 30 years old, and getting into and out of a small two door is a real pain in the ass. The Accord is much bigger than a 2 series or a CLA, with a higher seating position, and far more comfortable to drive. If what your looking for is performance, than by all means, buy the small coupe of your dreams. Me? I'll take something a bit more plush in my old age. Maybe that's why I'd really like to put a late 60's/early 70's land yacht in my dream garage.

Aero > AthomSfere 01/20/2014 at 23:50

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Are you confusing LSD with IRS?

Milky > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 01/20/2014 at 23:51

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Hmm, well I guess I've never gone from a sedan to a coupe of the same car in a close amount of time. I always thought the longer door was just for rear access, but that does make sense. Learn something new everyday.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Milky 01/20/2014 at 23:55

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truth be told, when the two body styles are the same price, I'd take the coupe every time just for that reason. I actually can never own some cars because of a lack of leg room. The fiero, the AW11 MR2, actually most roadsters and two-seaters smaller than a Z-car are just unbearable for me. The FR-S is a very awkward fit for me, but if I move the seat ALL the way back, I get it close enough. But then the "rear seat" is not at all a seat.

Weirdly enough, when I tested the fiesta ST, I moved the recaro into a comfortable position for me and my long legs and a) still had a few notches left to go and b) still had some legroom in the back for children/smaller adults. If I get kids I will need a mid-sized car at the very minimum because of my long-ass legs so yeah, these sorts of things become important when looking at cars.

Milky > Deal Killer - Powered by Focus 01/20/2014 at 23:59

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I have to imagine the Challenger is easy to get into because its based off a full sized car.

But I do see your point, and in all fairness I want to drive a older yacht like that.

Zipppy, Mazdurp builder, Probeski owner and former ricerboy > Milky 01/21/2014 at 00:00

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FWD coupes can be awesome, despite being overshadowed by their RWD counterparts you know...

AthomSfere > Aero 01/21/2014 at 00:31

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Perhaps... And now just too tired to care / analyze this thread...

As soon as you said that though, flash backs of Mustang guys welding their diffs and I have no clue what I was smoking earlier.

GoliathRex > AthomSfere 01/21/2014 at 00:37

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After test driving virtually every "sporty" car under 30k at least once- I ended up with an SI coupe. I have no need for a spacious backseat. Although I am greatly biased toward hatchbacks- nothing else could match the mix of attributes the civic offered.

It rides nicely, but also handles (unlike C30/Veloster too soft, Mazdaspeed3- too hard) The 2013 update from 2012 fixed the handling youll read about in reviews.

The shift action is lovely (unlike Mini S)

It makes a nice noises and never feels underpowered (unlike BRZ/FRS)

I am confident it will not fall apart or make me look like an idiot (500 Abarth)

It is compact (unlike a mustang or camaro)

The seats are just "right" (unlike GTI- I am not very tall and these seeats do not work for me)

It is not a convertible (unlike Miata- personal preference)

Your boy, BJR > Milky 01/21/2014 at 00:53

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The original mini was hardly a hatch. And mini currently makes a coupe.

Milky > Your boy, BJR 01/21/2014 at 01:03

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Ohh thats right ….

Well either way I'm not much of a fan of this.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Milky 01/21/2014 at 09:43

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a car that doesn't go sideways on every snowy corner. lol

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Your boy, BJR 01/21/2014 at 09:48

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The CRX, and Interga are two of THE BEST FWD cars ever made, and I'm pretty sure thats not just my opinion. I had a 1997 GSR that was a complete shit box b/c of how the last couple owners treated it, but I still loved that car. too bad it's almost impossible to find a clean stock 2rd GSR toady.

Your boy, BJR > Milky 01/21/2014 at 12:49

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What's the deal with your FWD hate boner? There are just as many fun FWD cars as there are RWD cars.

Milky > Your boy, BJR 01/21/2014 at 14:23

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Are there really? But either way its not a FWD hate boner its a chassis boner. As in i like cars that do what their engine placement/layout is good at.

These all make sense to me:

FWD is great at efficiency and packaging interior volume. No hate in that sentence.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Milky 01/21/2014 at 19:16

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Scuse

you.

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Milky 01/21/2014 at 19:36

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Umm...

Milky > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 01/21/2014 at 20:18

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There are always exceptions to rules

But they seem to be few and far between.

Really I'd rather have a equivalent SC instead of the Buick or Acura. I would prefer the caddy and Citroen be RWD. Ins't the Corrado a hatch? Because I'm for practicality. The Volvo does nothing for me, I'd rather have it be more practical and AWD. Last but not least I'd much rather have the 406 and the Italians be RWD.

But thats just me, I like to power slide on the regular.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

theloudmouth > Milky 01/24/2014 at 23:09

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All the more reason, most people can't get a RWD coupe for their first car for a billion reasons (insurance, gas, parents, etc., etc.). THIS car introduced me any MANY more to 8K RPM, dual wishbones at all four corners, rifle bolt gear shifts..... This is the type of car that turns someone interested into cars into the person who opens Jalopnik before their email.

PardonMyFlemish16 > Milky 01/25/2014 at 00:09

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Small cheap slow RWD cars don't make a lot of sense. A Miata is not much more fun, if at all, than something like an ITR. A FWD car with ~200HP and ~2500 lbs is a damn good time.

I had a Fiat Panda rental in Italy for a week... 5 speed with the 70HP 1.2... such a fun fun fun car. Blasting through the Tuscan mountains, doing 100 down the autostrada... it was great. I definitely love my Z more but it was fun to wring that little thing's neck. I also had some old Accords with swaps and LSDs and stuff... also very fun. FWD can be fun. I don't know if I can go back though, at this point.

Milky > PardonMyFlemish16 01/25/2014 at 11:35

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"Small cheap slow RWD cars don't make a lot of sense. A Miata is not much more fun, if at all …."

Yea no ….. just see yourself off the internet.

Not to mention is there even a 200hp FWD car thats less than 2500lbs on sale? & you said you can never go back to FWD if I understood you correctly. You're not very good at making points.

Milky > theloudmouth 01/25/2014 at 11:46

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Really "MANY more" ….. I thought they weren't really that many around?

Plus a nice RWD car will turn you into someone who goes on Oppo too (hi). Not to mention I don't buy those as reasons to not get RWD first, If use your own money all your parents can do is suggest things IMO.

SaabLife, because Gripen > Milky 01/25/2014 at 11:47

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Man, first he goes after wagons and now the Miata? This is pretty anti-Jalop...

I_AmDeath > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 01/25/2014 at 11:48

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Zero to 60 in eventually maybe? Yikes.

Milky > SaabLife, because Gripen 01/25/2014 at 11:48

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Exactly. I thought the world had to know this person exists.

theloudmouth > Milky 01/25/2014 at 12:01

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Okay, perhaps I should've prefaced that by saying back when I got my licence in 2002 (holy crap I'm getting old) there were tons of those and Civic's with B-series, etc. around. It's also easy to forget just how few reasonably cheap to run RWD fun cars there are around. At my time, 240SX's were rare as can be, you didn't get a Miata when you were 16 for multiple reasons (I'm 6'5" so I simply don't fit in any unless it's a spec car and the seat is bolted to the floor).

It's almost impossible to ignore the hands on mechanical experience people got with these cars. B-series swaps were easy and plentiful enough that during that original Fast and Furious import explosion age, people like myself without a dad or uncles into cars was able to cut my teeth on engine swaps and much more, with a plethora of materials available to see you through the process.

Of course the Integra would've been better RWD, I'm certainly not arguing that and I outgrew the car, moved to a Saabaru 9-2X Aero (yeaaahhh cheap insurance!), now onto a RWD BMW. The point was that it made so many WANT a RWD car... Trust me, I get the RWD part, my Integra has full prothane bushing set, sway bars, coil overs, r-comp's and it still was annoying as well.

PardonMyFlemish16 > Milky 01/25/2014 at 12:41

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Since when do Jalops buy new cars? You guys just complain about them.

And yea, I can't go back to FWD just like I can't go back to a 200HP car, for which FWD can make sense. I'm accustomed to a level of performance that FWD (and stock motor Miatas) can't reach.

JasonStern911 > PardonMyFlemish16 01/25/2014 at 13:15

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let's see. what sounds like more fun? torque steer or power slides... 8-)

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > PardonMyFlemish16 01/25/2014 at 15:15

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You know, I think I agree with you. At low power levels, FWD is absolutely as fun as RWD. You can't kick the rear out with power in the snow and wet, but that's what the handbrake is for.

Anyone who says FWD is boring should drive a 106 GTi.

PardonMyFlemish16 > JasonStern911 01/25/2014 at 16:00

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With 200HP and low torque you're not gonna get much of either.

PardonMyFlemish16 > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 01/25/2014 at 16:02

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I mean you really have to try hard to make something like a stock Miata drift. You read reviews about something like the E30 M3, it drives a lot like a FWD car. The focus is the front end... getting the car pointed right, braking etc. The back is just kind of along for the ride and barring real hamfisting you're probably not gonna upset it much.

JasonStern911 > PardonMyFlemish16 01/25/2014 at 17:57

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spoken like someone that has never driven a Miata in a spirited fashion.

Chatham Harrison dba SPANFELLER DELENDUS EST > GoliathRex 01/26/2014 at 23:09

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Now that's how you buy a car. My own selection was less illustrious, but getting out and driving the cars you might buy does a lot more than hemming and hawing about FWD or RWD, IRS or SRA, etc, etc.

Kookanoodles > Milky 01/28/2014 at 17:43

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Citroλn SM.

That is all.

Sketch > Milky 10/01/2018 at 13:28

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Evo magazine called the ITR one of the top 10 driver’s cars of all time, in any drivetrain configuration.